SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
Stephen Miller was already the architect of some of President Trump's most aggressive policies, especially on immigration. Now he's been promoted. Today is his first day as White House chief of staff. He's taking over from Susie Wiles, who some insiders thought had a moderating influence on the president. A hard-liner like Stephen Miller might be a surprising choice considering the massive losses for Republicans in the midterm elections. We wanted to know what Chris Whipple thought. He wrote a book about White House chiefs of staff called "The Gatekeepers." He also wrote extensively about Susie Wiles for Vanity Fair. And just last month, as rumors swirled that she would be replaced, Whipple wrote, quote, "in all likelihood, Susie Wiles, Trump's chief, isn't going anywhere."
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Well, actually, that was, of course, then, and this is now. And the midterm result was really an extinction-level event that not even Susie Wiles could survive. I mean, she had a kind of magic with Donald Trump, hard-earned, in the trenches. They'd worked together since 2015 and on the elections of 2016, 2020. And Trump trusted her in a way that he never did any of her predecessors. This is a major, kind of a seismic event.
PFEIFFER: And why do you think he thought that cutting Susie Wiles and replacing her was going to change the outcome of how the public is viewing his policies?
WHIPPLE: Well, I think that's the way Donald Trump rolls. And frankly, I think this is a signal. This is a shot across the bow of the incoming Democratic Congress, if not a declaration of war. This is going to be a wartime White House. There's not going to be any attempt to govern across the aisle. And Stephen Miller is, in many ways, the antithesis of the kind of White House chief that's been effective in the past. He's a he's an ideologue. You know, he's a zealot and hardly the honest broker that most presidents would want in that position.
PFEIFFER: I read an analysis of his appointment that said it's not just a doubling down, it's a quadrupling down, basically, on sort of battleship ahead in terms of how the Trump administration functions. Do you agree with that?
WHIPPLE: Yeah, I do. I think Miller is a guy who is simply going to be his wartime consigliere, in effect.
PFEIFFER: What do you think is the most important thing for the public to know about Stephen Miller in terms of how he thinks and acts and how he will do this job?
WHIPPLE: Well, I'm glad you asked because I did a long interview with Miller last November when I was writing my piece on Susie Wiles. I spent some time in the Roosevelt Room with him. He was not exactly relaxed. He is always intense. This is a guy who, at the end of the day, fundamentally believes that Donald Trump can do no wrong. As I say, that's sort of the last person you want in that role ordinarily as White House chief of staff because among all the other duties a chief has to perform, he or she has to be able to walk into the Oval Office, close the door and tell the president hard truths, often something the president doesn't want to hear. That is not Stephen Miller's MO.
PFEIFFER: I read a quote by Donald Rumsfeld, who had been chief of staff for Gerald Ford. And he said the White House chief of staff is the one person, besides his wife, who could look him right in the eye and say this is not right. You simply can't go down that road. So if we do lose whatever moderating influence Susie Wiles played, how do you expect that to play out over the two years left in the Trump presidency?
WHIPPLE: Well, I think you'll see it play out in an even more extreme, untethered, unchained, if you will, Donald Trump. You're going to see him doing exactly what he wants to do, no questions asked, because that's Miller's modus operandi - it's to salute and go and carry out the president's orders.
PFEIFFER: President Trump did give "60 Minutes" an interview over the weekend, and he actually acknowledged that his deportation policy might be too tough, and that there may have been a reason he lost. Given that Stephen Miller supports the aggressive deportation approach, how do you see that resolving now that Miller is Trump's chief of staff?
WHIPPLE: I don't think you'll see much change. I mean, Trump says this kind of stuff all the time. He suggested that he agreed with JD Vance that it was all about the war. Now he's saying maybe it's about his draconian immigration policies. I just don't think you can take Trump at his word on any of this stuff. And the more important fact is that you have the architect of that immigration policy now as the second most powerful person in Washington.
PFEIFFER: Chris, given how many chiefs of staff Trump has gone through, how long do you expect Miller to last?
WHIPPLE: Very good question. Look, it wouldn't surprise me if he makes it to the end of Trump 2.0. I think we're stuck with Miller. I hope he turns out to be better than his past would suggest.
PFEIFFER: That is political journalist Chris Whipple. Chris, thank you.
WHIPPLE: My pleasure. Thanks. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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